S4 E39: Tony Doe on The Responsibility of Trust in Life & Podcasting

Tony: 00:00

So if you're listening to a podcast field or misinformation, there, like two or three other podcasts to counter you with, to counter that bit of information with straight off facts, and then leave you as a listener to come to terms with what you want. I think what what's important here is to understand why people actually decide to invest in certain people and put their money in them. And then it's up to you up to you as an individual to decide whether or not it's something you agree with.

Danny: 00:32

This week, I'm talking with Tony Doe, host of the Tony Doe Podcast, a show about people from different radio backgrounds who share the radio stories and the mediums, present and future. Tony, welcome to Podcast Stories. How about you tell us about yourself and your podcast?

Tony: 00:46

Hello, Danny. It's a big pleasure to be on this podcast. Podcast Stories My name is Tony Doe. I'm from Lagos, Nigeria. My podcast is the Tonido Podcast pretty obvious name. I didn't want to think too much about the name, and I wanted something that people could remember, especially people who remember me from my days on radio. So the Tornado Podcast is a series of interviews I have with people working in the radio broadcast industry. It's a passion of mine. I've been in radio, in fact, right up to 2019. I was still very active in radio. In fact, I was managing a radio station on the other side of town, and then Covet hit and I had to come home, and a few things changed. So what I've been doing with my time apart from radio and the podcast, of course, is sharing my knowledge or sharing my enthusiasm for podcasting with young people trying to get into podcasting as well, and using that as a template to get people into radio, sort of. But back to the podcast itself, the Tornado Podcast. I finished season one in December. I'm getting ready for season two, and in the first season I had 13 episodes. I had two international broadcast consultants I had admired for many years, and being able to get them on the podcast was such a rush for me. That was Mike McPhee and Valerie Geller. It meant a lot to me that they could take out time to be on the podcast. It wasn't easy getting any of my guests on the podcast because of conflicting schedules and timetables and stuff, but I wanted radio people, people in my field, to have a place where they could share their stories and inspire other people. Most times, they're the ones on the other side of the microphone, having conversations with personalities and celebrities and introducing those ones to familiar audiences or new audiences. And to an extent, they expected to say certain things, act certain ways, and nobody really knows the full story about how they got into God on radio. So I decided to do this. I've been playing around with the idea since I was in monetary. Actually, I've had it for a very long time, but I really started playing with it when I was managing the radio station on the other side of the country, not even town. And I had a very talented group of presenters. I was programs manager, and my presenters were versatile. We were using a language that kind of argument should be the national language. It's pigeon. It's English, but it's the colloquial version of how we speak English in most places and how we get along because of different languages. And I have people who are really talented from different fields who found themselves on radio. We had comedians, we had accountants, we had engineers, we had computer geniuses. And they all decided that radio was the best way for them to express themselves and be the best versions of themselves they could be. So I had started this thing under a tree where I set up my microphones and my focus right audio interface and a laptop, and I was just having conversations with anyone who wasn't on air at the time. And in the process, I discovered really interesting stories. So I started keeping a list of all the people I felt I wanted to talk to from the early days when I got on radio up to the time when some of the fantastic young talents were coming on board as well. And I grew the list. And then in 2020, I asked myself, okay, if you're serious about doing this, then you're going to have to make it proper. You're not going to have the time to speak with everybody you have on this list, but you can structure the list in such a way that at least you have a season, and then maybe you get ready for the next season. So I started reaching out to everybody. I reached out to Valerie Gela the earliest, and she was quick with her response. She was so excited. I was like, Tony, let's do this. And I was able to do that. So all my interviews eventually were remote interviews. It's over. But the interesting thing was I was able to talk to different radio personalities from different parts of the country and other parts of the world as well, something that I probably would not have been able to achieve if I was going to depend on having to sit in the same room with these people, and they were excited to share their stories, and that meant a lot to me. So that's really how I decided to put the Tornado podcast out, and I'm looking forward to putting out the second season. I'm in the middle of production right now, and I didn't spend a lot of time promoting the first season because I didn't want a situation where I would overwhelm myself with strategy and production, and then something would have to suffer. So I focused a lot more on production, ensuring that the 13 episodes were complete. They were up there, I could always find a way to repurpose their content a little later. The whole idea was, you know, what put out something that's a legacy, sort of something that somebody would always find and somebody would always find useful, if you're interested in getting into radio. And that's how I got into producing and hosting the Toyota Podcast.

Danny: 06:47

And I find it interesting that you're taking it from an angle of bringing radio people onto a podcast, because rightly or wrong, some people see radio and podcast and computing mediums as opposed to complimentary mediums. And you mentioned your production. You really wanted to concentrate on your production, which you can tell when you listen to the show. It's a very well produced podcast. So kudos to that. Speaking of radio, one of your early episodes back in October last year, you spoke with you said something I loved, and it really stuck with me. Yes. And that radio was a sole medium because it was all about the quality of the content and the value you get, which I feel ties really well with podcast and what podcasters are bringing. And I'm wondering how closely you working on both sides and the people you speak to, how close the line do you feel radio and podcasting is?

Tony: 07:44

Here's what's interesting. I'm still a radio person, but I'm more active in podcasting. And I did mention something a little earlier that before I produced the Tornado Podcast, I was able to create podcast platforms to help people who wanted to get into radio. Now, for a lot of talent down here, the opportunities are not as much. You'd have to do auditions or you'd have to go down to radio stations. But I found that a lot of people had more to say than what they could say in a two minute demo tape. And I was like, you know what? If you could build your capacity or your brand or your personality doing a podcast, you could probably pivot into radio. And then again, I'm coming from radio into podcasting. Some of my colleagues are doing the same thing as well pipe button into podcasting as well. So it's an audio medium. It's so powerful that I think the only real distinction between podcasting and radio would be regulation. At least where I'm from, with podcasting, you can go on for as long as you want. With radio, you probably have to hit the 20 minutes Mark before the next bit of commercial comes in. And then, of course, people who like to cross there are so many things you can do with podcasting that you can't do on radio, but there are so many qualities in podcasting that if you get them right, it could prepare you for radio if that's what you want to do. One of the things I'm enjoying about podcasting right now is the fact that it's personal. We used to say this was what radio was. The whole idea was to speak to somebody a separate person was across from you. Over time, I've been listening to a lot of radio presenters speak as if they were talking to arenas or talking to massive crowds. And a lot of that personality has been missing. And you find that now in podcasting. So in the interviews, you notice I asked everyone what they felt about podcasting as well, and everybody had an opinion about it. But for me, it's a solid platform for building radio talent, but it's also a fantastic platform for driving issues and talking about things that you really can't talk about on regulated media.

Danny: 10:09

On that same episode, it's a really good episode. I encourage anybody to listen to it. Utah also mentioned that he wants to see podcasts get to your point where they compete with radio or commercials, commercials. And I'm looking at some of the mega deals in podcasting with, like, Spotify buying X and Wondery and everything, and there's a lot of mega deals and mega advertising. And I'm wondering, do you feel like this is geared more towards the big name and big company podcasters, or can indie podcasters reap the same kind of success?

Tony: 10:43

To be honest, I think those who already have brands and strong celebrity statuses are the ones who are really enjoying this, because you find that platforms like Spotify and Core driven by how much commercial success they can drive. And for some of us who are in the podcasts, it's still a hobby. We're just looking for ways to enjoy what we're doing and sustain that level of enjoyment. So there will be a time I think 2022 would sort of like even the playing field a bit, and this would then come down to the listener experience. Eventually there will be a time where focus will be on the independent podcasters, and then, of course, the sort of adverts that will come to the independent podcasters will be symbiotic. It's not just like slamming a cigarette commercial on the cancer podcast. It's actually going to be something that identifies with the core values of the podcast. And I think the independent podcasts will have the idea. But for now, as long as the big companies are still calling the shots, they will continue to do what they do. One of the things I'm hoping will continue to help us is when these big names decide that maybe we're not ready to do podcasting yet, like it's happened with Prince Harry and Meghan and the Obamas and calls. So I'm hoping that they will be the ones to actually give these companies a reason to say, okay, fine, you're a big brand name. Maybe you're not ready to do this. Let's invest in those who actually have invested audiences and focus on that. I like when you raised that position, and that goes to show that there is an interest in what we're doing with podcasting, but there's a lot to learn with how to bridge that interest with marketing strategies that will benefit the podcaster as well as the listener. Compared to how it works with radio, radio is a little different the station first and then your programming a little later. So it's something I'm still talking to him about as well. He's head of his own station where he is. He's doing a fantastic job.

Danny: 12:55

And it's interesting that you made the point about 2022 being the year of the indie podcaster. My colleague who I work at Captivate with, Mark Askewiff, he's the co founder, and he was on the sales profitable podcast last week. I believe it was speaking with Brian about it. Right. And he was speaking about how he's going to see a definite delegation between big podcasts and indie podcasts. And it may be the indie podcasts actually have more freedom, even though they don't have the bigger budget. Going back to your point of podcasting versus radio, they have more freedom to talk about topics and explore more that there might be restrictions on big brand podcast because there's more legalities involved, etcetera. So we just need to see for sure.

Tony: 13:45

I think this year so many things happen. A lot happened between last year and this year. And I'm like you're starting all over again, and the excitement is still brimming excited about podcasting this year.

Danny: 14:00

Now the episode with Rex We refresh was a really interesting one because one of the topics he talked about was importance. And this kind of goes back to your point about the regulations. It was about the importance of the kind of information or misinformation being shared on the radio and the responsibility broadcasters have to their listeners. And I'm wondering, do you feel there needs to be something like that in podcasting thinking? The recent Joe Rogan controversy that everybody's got an opinion on? Obviously.

Tony: 14:32

It'S a bit of a Gray area because any kneejerk reaction could tilt towards the very thing we're avoiding with radio. I think we've reached a point where podcast listeners are smart enough to know when they are being misinformed. I'd like to take that for granted. I'd like to take it for granted that if somebody comes on a podcast and tells me things that do not make sense or sound like lies, I have an option to go check and verify. And I really like how the podcasting community works in the same vein. So if you're listening to a podcast field or misinformation, there are like two or three other podcasts to counter that bit of information with straight off facts and then leave you as a listener to come to terms with what you want. I think what's important here is to understand why people actually decide to invest in certain people and put their money in them. And then it's up to you, up to you as an individual to decide whether or not it's something you agree with. Spotify is a commercial machine, and it's not too different from state owned establishments or advertising agencies who want certain bits of their products running on air. They've invested a lot of money in what Joe Rogan represents. They can't say they are not aware of his position or the type of content he has. They invested in the fact that he has numbers, and they wanted their money to multiply along those numbers. That being said, he's taking responsibility for what he's said wrong or the things that he's been accused of having said wrong. And unfortunately, it's spiraling into other things as well that he probably shouldn't have said or done. But we need to be careful with this. It's important, of course, that just because I have a podcast, it doesn't mean I have to fool you or deceive you. I owe you, the listener, the responsibility of trust. It's the very essence of why I'm creating what I'm creating for you. I want you to trust me. I want you to believe me. And if it turns out that I'm lying to you, then I probably deserve everything that comes to me. Commercial companies who decide to invest in big name podcasts and even upcoming podcasters should be very clear about why they are doing these things. I'm not act shocked later on when it looks like it's backing up on them, so it's a Gray area, but it's something that can be handled even before it gets out of hand, really. And they can decide that, okay, we're part of this because we're spending money on you, or we're part of this because we believe the values you're bringing and then defend along those lines. But if we say that we should start censoring podcasters now, it defeats the essence of having the podcasting platform in the first place.

Danny: 17:58

Interesting points. Now you made a transcription from radio to podcast, I believe, in 2013. How did that come about?

Tony: 18:07

I left the previous job and I headed into another job. I think at that point I was born out from doing radio work. I had done a lot of work on radio. A lot of it was behind the scenes, and I was making a transition, really, into management from being a producer on a talent. But I was born out and I needed to rest, but I didn't want to be forgotten too quickly. So I wanted a situation where I could still make myself available even if it wasn't on radio. So I've done quite a number of podcast related content. Even at the time, I wasn't really doing the finest podcast, but I was running a lot of audio shows on different platforms just to keep myself active. And then I discovered that what I was doing was podcasting when I started meeting other people who were doing the same thing as well. So it was a transition for me. And at that point, I was kind of tired of working for people. So I thought, okay, if I could do a podcast or do these shows, then I could do them on my own terms. And if I needed to get back on radio, then maybe I could up my terms and be Howard Stern kind of person down here.

Danny: 19:32

That really was you mentioned at the start of the episode that you're based in Lagos, Nigeria. And I'm curious what's the industry like there's.

Tony: 19:43

The heart of podcasting in Nigeria. Everything happens commercially. The music capital is the financial capital. So before you go anywhere, you have to go to Lagos first. And then I think Apuja is speaking up as well. Apuja is the nation's capital, but Lagos is where it's happening. We're a small cluster. I think I'm one of maybe just two or three people who actually run surveys. I've been running surveys on podcasting growth in Nigeria since 2018, about two or three. And it's a very small crowd. And we really don't like talking too much about our numbers, but we're growing. We have a community called the Naja Pod Hub. We have just over 500 podcasters registered, and we have virtual events. We have a WhatsApp group where we communicate every day, and then we dedicate some days to new episodes to having virtual meetings, to reviewing podcast episodes. And it's fun. We're looking forward to having something before summer or during the summer where those of us and we just get to come outside and really just hang out and work with each other. But the community is growing, and I'm sure we'll probably have a proper number before the end of March, but it's vibrant and we're getting new people coming in every day. Just as I mentioned, using podcasts as a platform for people to get into radio now, a lot of people are actually starting their podcasts with the intention of having pitched to radio stations, and that's also exciting for me as well.

Danny: 21:35

Now, as mentioned at the start, the podcast was launched in August last year. You just wrapped up season one with season two coming out soon. And I'm curious what other goals are for the future of the show.

Tony: 21:48

For season two, I'm hoping to speak to more female broadcasters, especially female Nigerian broadcasters. Their experiences are relatively different from the experiences that most male broadcasters have. And I'm talking to a younger set of radio broadcasters, those whose experiences are marginally different from my own experiences when I came into radio. So I'm looking forward to sharing your experiences and then comparing them with the experiences I had and then understanding how different our audiences are currently and then ways to move forward. But before even season two drops, I'll be spending some time talking to some people who I hope can actually support what I'm doing with this. I'm hoping to actually make the podcast sort of like an educational reference point for people coming into radio broadcasting, those who are studying it in College. So you have like a front row view to what it's really like being on radio, listening to those who are actually on the job beyond what you get in a classroom, and then what's limited to your short term internships. So I'll be speaking to individuals. I'll be speaking to institutions. I'll be reaching out for sponsors as well so that I can make season two a lot bigger than what season one was. Season one wasn't bad, and season one is still running in the sense that I'm gaining new listeners every day because I'm still promoting and then looking for other ways to repurpose the content. I didn't have a lot of time to transcribe because the language itself, there are portions of some of those interviews where you have to look for the appropriate way to put it in English, because it's not exactly in English. So I'm working on that as well. I'm repurposing a lot of what I did with season one before season two watches. By the time season two comes, it's more established, and then those who really need to hear these stories would already have access to it. And so it will be a lot easier for them to just continue listening and enjoying the content.

Danny: 24:14

That's cool. That sounds a little tied back to what you talked about earlier, where you're helping younger people get into podcasts and Stoke radio. So it sounds like you'll tie and circle back real and ice with what you're currently doing.

Tony: 24:27

Yeah, so that's what it is. I actually work with a team of broadcasters who run a professional certification for radio broadcasters. It's called the Broadcast Radio Master Class, and I usually take the podcast classes. And based on reports, my classes are usually the most exciting at the end of the day because I'm more or less telling them they have the power in their hands to become tomorrow's radio stars, and all they have to do is pick up their phones and start recording. What I try to do with those classes is actually pulling all the resources that they would probably have spread out for them on radio. For instance, if you had to go on air, you probably just focus on being a presenter. But with podcasting, you're probably going to think to yourself, wouldn't it make sense if I could edit my own show until you're picking up production skills as well? So I try to give them that much power to become their own producers, their own presenters, their own marketers, their own show promoters, their own script writers. And by the time they're getting into radio, they're probably exceptional assets will probably get into management quicker than others who just come in for one particular role.

Danny: 25:48

That's awesome. And I'm looking forward to hearing how that goes. You have to come back on after season two or during season two, perhaps, and let me know how that's going.

Tony: 25:56

Awesome. I look forward to that.

Danny: 25:58

So, Tony, I really enjoyed our chat this afternoon. I guess it is maybe evening I'm not sure if it's even where you are at the moment. The time zone differences. I know there will be less than I'll be really curious to hear about the conversations you have with your guests. So for anybody that's looking to check out your podcast and listen to the episodes of season one like the two I mentioned and the other ones that are on there too or to connect with you online because I know you're very active on Twitter share a really good mix of stuff there Where's the best place people can connect with you.

Tony: 26:35

I'm on Twitter I'm very active at Tony doveo that's T-O-N-Y-D-O-E-V-O it's one word Tonido v o on Twitter I'm very active there on Instagram sometimes Tonyo media Tonydoemedia and the podcast is available on potpage at potpage. Comdonidopodcast. But if you throw in the toneDo podcasts and Google search.

Danny: 27:05

It will bring up something definitely and I'll be sure as usual to drop all the links to Tony's website and his social channels and the show notes. So if you're listening to the episode on your favorite podcast app, make sure to check out the show notes as usual and go follow Tony and connect with him. Tony again thank you for coming on today and I'm looking forward to sharing your story with our listeners.

Tony: 27:27

Thank you so much, Danny. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you.